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 Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread

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PostSubject: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:53 pm

Can Sasuke Love? [This is an edited version of one of my old posts]








I'm not much of a fanfiction reader; however I've noticed a rather disturbing trend when I do browse through the heap of Naruto fanfics scattered throughout the 'Net.

If Sasuke is written 100% in character during a romance fanfic [any pairing], the recipient of Sasuke's “romance” should probably make a call to their local domestic abuse hotline.

Examples: [Please post more if you know any; despite my NaruSasu...in that order - preference, there's no yaoi on my favorites list would be appropriate]

Cognitive Dissonance http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4549659/1/

Just Persuasion http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3139074/1/

Disregard the pairings, this isn't about who Sasuke is hooking up with. It's about Sasuke's “love” being the last thing any sane individual would want to receive.

Why?

'Cause when Sasuke loves, it's not real love. It's his distorted interpretation of love [& the sad thing is, he may not even be aware of his fouled interpretation. Maybe he honestly assumes it's real love]

Don't trust my opinion? Well, let's figure out yours...

Hypothetical Situation:



Quote:
let's say you're [insert character].

Better yet, let's just make you a 16 year old ninja. [I'm gonna be nice, I'll make you a relatively smart & level headed individual. Genre Savvy. An internal BS detector; not getting caught in any Genjutsu]

Girl, Boy, IT – doesn't matter. You're just a 16 year old ninja that crosses paths with Sasuke.

Not only have you crossed paths with Sasuke, but you've just befriended Naruto. You know enough about Naruto to make decent judgments of Naruto's personal character. Naruto revealed to you his backstory, & his goal to redeem Sasuke.



So, for whatever reason, you have become acquainted with Sasuke. You eventually know Sasuke enough to make decent judgments about Sasuke's personal character. Through the grapvine, you figure out his tragic backstory.

You acknowledge Sasuke & Naruto's attractiveness in the same apathetic way you acknowledge a celebrities. It's there, but...whatever. It doesn't affect you, so it doesn't matter.

Now, here's the hook -

One day, out of the blue, Naruto says “I love you, will you married me?”

You reply, “...possibly”

Rather confused, the next day, you encounter Sasuke.

Sasuke says “I love you, will you marry me?”

You reply, “Uh, I'll consider my options”


...so, lucky SOAB, what now?

NO, this is not just the plot of a terrible Mary Sue fanfic.

More like, if given the option, would you love Sasuke? [& if he claimed to love you, would it even be real?...Not so much about loving Naruto]

So you're into Emos...but you're also into Blonds [not into bloody sheets, so Ménage à trois is out of the option]

Dear friend, don't get torn - I'll make this decision easy & break things down for you.

There's Naruto


Quote:
- who despite various obstacles, [imagine having some disaster like Pearl Harbor sealed inside your soul by the President & everyone in the US knows it] has gained the trust & admiration of his entire village. Forgiven, heck, sometimes befriended, various adversaries he encountered.[Haku...kinda, Gaara, Neji, spoilers] When bad things happen, Naruto doesn't mope around & blame others, whether or not he's responsible for the situation in the first place - he tries his best to solve it. Naruto does the right the even if it doesn't personally benefit him.

Naruto has integrity. [ - adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty].

Naruto can be trusted, & Naruto will trust you. If he loves you, he honestly means it. If you love him, he'll still love you even if you stop loving him for whatever personal reason. [Sasuke] & if you try to love him again, he'll forgive you & still love you just as much. [...still Sasuke]

Than There's Sasuke:


Quote:
Who, unlike Naruto, Sasuke doesn't have integrity.

Sasuke just has a broken soul.

Even though it wasn't Sasuke's fault his soul was broken [Uchiha Massacre], it's his fault the wound won't heal.

When someone tries to love & help Sasuke, he disregards them until they are of use [Team 7]. If someone trusts Sasuke, he will not trust them equally. Despite knowing he's been given an individual's trust, He will disrespect it in a heartbeat for his own personal gain. When Sasuke is faced with a problem, he will blame others, whether it's their fault or not.

Using a horrible situation to validate your own equally as horrible, if not worse, actions is the same broken logic that fuels wars & bloodshed in our own world. [Christianity started the crusades in the 1100's & killed innocent Muslims, so we'll kill innocent Christians. Muslims killed innocent Christians on 9/11, so we'll kill innocent Muslims. Germans killed innocent Jews & banished them from their own country, so we'll banish Palestinians from their own country & cause the death of innocent Palestinians]

If Sasuke says "I love you", it's not the correct, unconditional-till death do us part-heart fluttery- love. It's his twisted, manipulative, loosely based on-the-real-thing, definition of love. If he loves, it's for his personal gain, not the best intention of the recipient.

However, if someone loves Sasuke, he certainly understands & recognizes their emotions. In fact, he may enjoy their company, respect & defend them if the need arises, not to mention the perks of being loved by them. [Training with Kakashi, Rivalry with Naruto, Sakura? &..other things that run the risk of being spoilers]


But his intentions are never entirely genuine. He has his own agenda, placed above all else.

This isn't because Sasuke is some evil wicked sadist. He just has never allowed himself to receive true love [using the Uchiha massacre to validate this isolation]. So how can you expect him to truly love others, when he won't let others do the same?

I bet there's still a decent amount of sicko's that find abusive Sasuke sexy. I wonder how hard he hits [If anyone is going to make a Domestic Abuser Sasuke FC, I demand co-ownership]


Now, I'm not saying Sasuke is "OMG! EVIL!"

Kishimoto has made it very obvious Sasuke will be redeemed. Whether it's Darth Vader-suicide-to-save-others-redemption, or a slow progression/revelation sort-of thing, that's to be decided.

So, basically:

If current, Part II Sasuke were to go up to Sakura/Naruto/Karin/Ino/etc. and say "I love you, let's get married" - it's not true love.

& if it WERE true, unconditional love, than it's poor writing/out of character.

However, Sasuke does grow attached, & respect's others feelings for him [his "thank-you” to Sakura] ...so, there's hope.

& hope was the only thing Pandora needed to conquer the evils he unleashed from his box.

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Major

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PostSubject: Re: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:45 pm

I think he can he was a good comrade until he wanted MS so damn badly
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PostSubject: Re: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:34 pm

no Sasuke.. dont love..hes high on evil darkness drugs..
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PostSubject: Re: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:48 am

Sasuke won't love anyone in the state
He's in.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:41 pm

Nagato wrote:
Can Sasuke Love? [This is an edited version of one of my old posts]

I'm not much of a fanfiction reader; however I've noticed a rather disturbing trend when I do browse through the heap of Naruto fanfics scattered throughout the 'Net.

I'm a biiiiiiiig fanfic reader Razz

Nagato wrote:
If Sasuke is written 100% in character during a romance fanfic [any pairing], the recipient of Sasuke's “romance” should probably make a call to their local domestic abuse hotline.

Examples: [Please post more if you know any; despite my NaruSasu...in that order - preference, there's no yaoi on my favorites list would be appropriate]

Cognitive Dissonance http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4549659/1/

Just Persuasion http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3139074/1/

I respectfully disagree.

This also brings about the question of what you deem "in character" for Sasuke. The Sasuke pre-Itachi's meddling in part one, where before the meeting with Itachi, his first concerns were his teammates, to the point of his concern for Naruto overtook his concern for killing Itachi before Itachi mindfidged him? The same Sasuke who decided NOT to kill his best friend after betraying Konoha, who wouldn't kill anyone innocent while he was with Orochimaru if he could help it, and still saved his new teammates when he was under no obligations to at the Killer Bee fight?

Or the Sasuke post-5-Kage arc who's seemingly going against any previous characterisation that Kishi's set out for him, and goes above and beyond anything rational, and goes through his teammates to get what he wants. Because I believe THAT is out of character. Sasuke had never gone that far before... bordering on psychotic.

One of the best Sasuke's I've seen in fanfic was this, House of Crows: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4569713/1/House_of_Crows . Sasuke is not in it a lot, but his characterisation is terrific. A Blind, Missing-nin Sasuke who hates Konoha so much so that he'll do nothing to to lift a finger to help them on the eve of war... but who'll help his teammates if they're in a bind...

Or this, Connections: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4380286/1/Connections . Sasuke trying to piece his family back together because of extenuous circumstances in his emotionally retarded way.

Both aren't romance-centric, but have a Sasuke who I believe is firmly in character.

Nagato wrote:

Disregard the pairings, this isn't about who Sasuke is hooking up with. It's about Sasuke's “love” being the last thing any sane individual would want to receive.

Why?

'Cause when Sasuke loves, it's not real love. It's his distorted interpretation of love [& the sad thing is, he may not even be aware of his fouled interpretation. Maybe he honestly assumes it's real love]

I think you should be careful here- it's fanfic for a reason.

Nagato wrote:

Don't trust my opinion? Well, let's figure out yours...

Hypothetical Situation:

Quote:
let's say you're [insert character].

Better yet, let's just make you a 16 year old ninja. [I'm gonna be nice, I'll make you a relatively smart & level headed individual. Genre Savvy. An internal BS detector; not getting caught in any Genjutsu]

Girl, Boy, IT – doesn't matter. You're just a 16 year old ninja that crosses paths with Sasuke.

Not only have you crossed paths with Sasuke, but you've just befriended Naruto. You know enough about Naruto to make decent judgments of Naruto's personal character. Naruto revealed to you his backstory, & his goal to redeem Sasuke.

So, for whatever reason, you have become acquainted with Sasuke. You eventually know Sasuke enough to make decent judgments about Sasuke's personal character. Through the grapvine, you figure out his tragic backstory.

You acknowledge Sasuke & Naruto's attractiveness in the same apathetic way you acknowledge a celebrities. It's there, but...whatever. It doesn't affect you, so it doesn't matter.

Now, here's the hook -

One day, out of the blue, Naruto says “I love you, will you married me?”

You reply, “...possibly”

Rather confused, the next day, you encounter Sasuke.

Sasuke says “I love you, will you marry me?”

You reply, “Uh, I'll consider my options”

...so, lucky SOAB, what now?

NO, this is not just the plot of a terrible Mary Sue fanfic.

More like, if given the option, would you love Sasuke? [& if he claimed to love you, would it even be real?...Not so much about loving Naruto]

So you're into Emos...but you're also into Blonds [not into bloody sheets, so Ménage à trois is out of the option]

Dear friend, don't get torn - I'll make this decision easy & break things down for you.

There's Naruto

Quote:
- who despite various obstacles, [imagine having some disaster like Pearl Harbor sealed inside your soul by the President & everyone in the US knows it] has gained the trust & admiration of his entire village. Forgiven, heck, sometimes befriended, various adversaries he encountered.[Haku...kinda, Gaara, Neji, spoilers] When bad things happen, Naruto doesn't mope around & blame others, whether or not he's responsible for the situation in the first place - he tries his best to solve it. Naruto does the right the even if it doesn't personally benefit him.

Naruto has integrity. [ - adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty].

Naruto can be trusted, & Naruto will trust you. If he loves you, he honestly means it. If you love him, he'll still love you even if you stop loving him for whatever personal reason. [Sasuke] & if you try to love him again, he'll forgive you & still love you just as much. [...still Sasuke]

Than There's Sasuke:

Quote:
Who, unlike Naruto, Sasuke doesn't have integrity.

Sasuke just has a broken soul.

Even though it wasn't Sasuke's fault his soul was broken [Uchiha Massacre], it's his fault the wound won't heal.

No offense, but that really does sound like a Mary Sue dodgy fanfic.

1) There's no one "type" of girl that either Naruto and Sasuke would go for.

2) We have no idea what "type" either would go for because of Kishi dutifully neglects romance.

3) We have no idea what it would take for Sasuke to be interested in anyone, and same for Naruto, because of aformentioned reason.

4) What were he circumstances between M Sue and Naruto, and M Sue and Sasuke?

Nagato wrote:

When someone tries to love & help Sasuke, he disregards them until they are of use [Team 7].
Oh you know... he was emotionally messed up post-massacre, being left to raise himself alone with canon showing absolutely no after-care or therepy. Despite that, with his time with team seven, he became a friend and rival to Naruto, slowly changing for the better, until, like I said before, putting Naruto's wellbeing before his thirst for revenge until Itachi mindfudged him again. Up until that point he didn't "disregard them until they are of use". He protected Sakura and Naruto in the Forest of Death, and tried to protect Sakura against Gaara.

Nagato wrote:

If someone trusts Sasuke, he will not trust them equally.
Can you blame him? Itachi "broke" him. Broken people don't trust easily. Because they can't bring themselves to be hurt again. This translates to real life, sadly.
Nagato wrote:

Despite knowing he's been given an individual's trust, He will disrespect it in a heartbeat for his own personal gain.
Where in the manga? Post where Itachi mindfudged his development, of course. Becuase the only people who trusted him after that are Orochimaru, who deserved to be backstabbed, his new team, who he protected without any obligation, before backstabbing them more recently on thus sudden change in personality.

Before that- Attempting against Gaara in the forest was not for his own gain. He nearly died.

Saving Naruto from Haku wasn't for his own gain.

Saving his team from KB/Amatarasu wasn't for his own gain.

Again, how he was built psychologically isn't exactly trusting. That's not his fault. That's realistic.
Nagato wrote:

When Sasuke is faced with a problem, he will blame others, whether it's their fault or not.
He's, and I put this as kindly as possible, emotionally retarded. Itachi's fault.

And again, before Itachi mindfudged him, he was taking the blame on himself, for not being strong enough. After Zabuza, after Gaara.

Hell, the only time he's actually blamed people who's fault it isn't is now, with the whole: "Konoha is laughing at my brother when he sacrificed his life for them, I'm gonna kill them all!!!!111!!" And from his point of view, he has a point. Konoha DID use Itachi (if we're taking the Uchiha Massacre at face value) to annihilate the clan so that they could proper in peace. Obviously he's wrong in saying that they're all to blame, when it wasn't the whole of Konoha who even knew about it or were aware, but I can see where he's coming from. And this blame comes at a time when he is VASTLY out of character from anything Kishi's painted him as, up til this point when he's gone nutty.

Nagato wrote:

Using a horrible situation to validate your own equally as horrible, if not worse, actions is the same broken logic that fuels wars & bloodshed in our own world.
People are stupid like that, unfortunately :/
Nagato wrote:

[Christianity started the crusades in the 1100's & killed innocent Muslims, so we'll kill innocent Christians. Muslims killed innocent Christians on 9/11, so we'll kill innocent Muslims. Germans killed innocent Jews & banished them from their own country, so we'll banish Palestinians from their own country & cause the death of innocent Palestinians]
I wouldn't compare real life situations to justify manga stuff, in most cases it just complicates matters Razz

Nagato wrote:

If Sasuke says "I love you", it's not the correct, unconditional-till death do us part-heart fluttery- love. It's his twisted, manipulative, loosely based on-the-real-thing, definition of love. If he loves, it's for his personal gain, not the best intention of the recipient.

We have no idea what Sasuke's idea of "love" is. We've never seen any of it bar familial. There's no basis to this statement.

Nagato wrote:

However, if someone loves Sasuke, he certainly understands & recognizes their emotions. In fact, he may enjoy their company, respect & defend them if the need arises, not to mention the perks of being loved by them. [Training with Kakashi, Rivalry with Naruto, Sakura? &..other things that run the risk of being spoilers]
He recognises a tentive friendship... or at least could. No it's more of a "I'll see how useful you are to me, we'll use eachother until we're of no use to eachother" (Suigetsu, who promisedto stay with Sasuke until he completed his OWN goals, Juugo, who stayed with Sasuke becuase he thought it was a connection to Kimimaro, and Karin, who wanted to jump him- hardly anyone who went with him for pure reasons, despite what any of their feelings grew into later)... again, until his latest twist in personality.

Nagato wrote:

But his intentions are never entirely genuine. He has his own agenda, placed above all else.
Until Itachi Mindfudged him, I think his intentions were plenty genuine. Yes he has his own agenda, but he made that clear. Orochimaru is not someone someone should feel bad about backstabbing. Taka thought he was someone he wasn't. Sasuke never promised to protect them. He said he needed them to find Itachi. He had no actual obligation to him, or they to him.

What I personally think his problem is, is that Itachi molded him into something, into hate, and Sasuke can't get out of it; or he doesn't know how.


Nagato wrote:

This isn't because Sasuke is some evil wicked sadist. He just has never allowed himself to receive true love [using the Uchiha massacre to validate this isolation]. So how can you expect him to truly love others, when he won't let others do the same?
Was it Sasuke who validated the isolation, though? We have no evidence to show if ANYTHING was done to help him after the massacre. What we do know is that he lived alone in the place where his family was massacred.

Does that seem like a healthy environment to you? Sasuke... was a slate that was shaped through very bad circumstances. His issues with emotions are due to those circumstances.

Nagato wrote:

I bet there's still a decent amount of sicko's that find abusive Sasuke sexy. I wonder how hard he hits [If anyone is going to make a Domestic Abuser Sasuke FC, I demand co-ownership]
This is the internet, be prepared to find your fair amount of weirdos xd

Nagato wrote:

Now, I'm not saying Sasuke is "OMG! EVIL!"
Glad to hear it.

Nagato wrote:

Kishimoto has made it very obvious Sasuke will be redeemed. Whether it's Darth Vader-suicide-to-save-others-redemption, or a slow progression/revelation sort-of thing, that's to be decided.
I'm hoping that it's executed well at the very least.
Nagato wrote:

So, basically:
If current, Part II Sasuke were to go up to Sakura/Naruto/Karin/Ino/etc. and say "I love you, let's get married" - it's not true love.
If Sasuke were to go upto any of those people and say anything like that I'd slap him with a trout. Of course it's not true love. No such feeling has even been remotely explored like that on his side. It would be pairing him with someone for the sake of pairing him with someone.

Nagato wrote:

& if it WERE true, unconditional love, than it's poor writing/out of character.
Damn straight.
Nagato wrote:

However, Sasuke does grow attached, & respect's others feelings for him [his "thank-you” to Sakura] ...so, there's hope.
There's always hope Very Happy

Sasuke needs... to break out of the cycle of hatred to start feeling things without paranoia or suspcian. Unfortunately his circumstances have made that damn near impossible.
Nagato wrote:

& hope was the only thing Pandora needed to conquer the evils he unleashed from his box.


If Sasuke got with anyone EVER, and i wasn't Sakura or Karin for the sake of pairing him off, I'd say it would be a non-shinobi. I can't actually see him hooking up with a shinobi, but that's just me.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:11 pm

I agree with Hadz-x. The point where Sasuke stoped caring for his team was at the Kage meeting when he found out that Zetsu had betrayed him.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:07 am

Can he love???

I think he can .. yes.

I mean he already shows how much he loved his brother and his clan - so yeah he can love.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:22 pm

I think Sasuke would require one of those Lifetime drama "breakdowns" where he ends up just a sobbing-wreck. Catharsis. After that, I think he begin to emotionally rebuild and remember what it means to truly love.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Sasuke Love? Debate Thread   Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:31 pm

I think saskue can't love anyone because a his trauma as a child with his brother killiong his village.
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